Good drumming versus great drumming

[five eight]

What keeps me returning to HOD is the amount of knowledge that’s exchanged. Everybody here knows what they’re talking about. Everybody here is witty and wise about the possibilities of drumming as a sole means of support, the whims of bandleaders, and the realities of the music business. Everybody here understands that it’s tough to have a larger-than-life figure like McCartney in your face or Sting chewing your ass because you forgot where one was.

Drumming is show business. Show business is a pool of graduating depth filled with egos and attitudes. There are stars of different magnitudes and little stars often get extinguished and drown in the deep end. Everybody understands that here. You knew that before you ever started thinking about drumming in the cutthroat, clique-ridden climes of Nashville, Manhattan and LA. Not to mention backwaters filled with their own brands of intrigue.

With so much collective wisdom in the room I have a question.

What separates being merely excellent from being absolutely great?

The probable answers pose questions:
Is it ability plus being able to mesh favorably with various personalities?
Is it the band you’re in? (Peart and Copeland remain good but not great outside the comfort zones of Rush and The Police. Ringo was great in The Beatles, but he’d be the first to admit he couldn’t hang with Buddy, who was great in every band he was in.)
Is it study? (Study may be part of it and can give you a leg up but it’s not all of it. I know schooled players who are good but not great.)
Is it being gifted?

When I first started playing I knew a kid who was gifted at the drums. No matter how much I practiced he always sounded better, with no apparent effort. Early on I realized that no matter how good you are there’s always going to be somebody better. Gifted players raise the bar for everybody and don’t make the job any easier. That’s good for many reasons, obvious and otherwise. Who wants to listen to good music when you could listen to great music?

Which gets back to my question. What’s great, and why?

[PencilZ]

I guess that would depend on what your interpretation of Great is.

Steve Lukather is a great guitarist and at another spectrum BB king is too. Two totally different players but Great in their respective fields.

My niece might define Britney spears as great but for me.... its only her chest. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[numeroUnoHODfan]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder as great drumming is in the ear of the beholder.

Some are content with J. R. Robinson, while others have to have their Vinnie.

"What separates being merely excellent from being absolutely great?"

-Maturity.

[PocketPlayer]

I agree with Me2, less the Spears chest comment--haha

I played a classic fusion CD for someone and they thought it sucked. Classical music can be overlooked even though it is played by some of the best trained players on the globe. The guy next door digs hip-hop (the kind that boasts large BOOM BOOM bass from his car), when I play him some good rock (good from my point of view) he sort of looks away, disinterested.

I think there are two categories to consider; the musician and the listener. The musician has more sophisitcated ears and is more musically mature. He/she can listen to something outside of their box and appraise it based on categories the listener usually cannot.
The listener (or most of the population) simply enjoys what tickles their ears. Rock heads think Phil Rudd is the best drummer alive. Why? They dig AC/DC. For others, it is Neil Peart. Both drummers play in hugely successful bands and are very exposed.

So, what is great?
* Is it the drummer who can cop many styles & feels in the studio?
* Is it the drummer who has a signiture sound and feel (Bonham, Copeland, Gadd)
* Is it the technical player?
* Is it the feel player?

IMO, great does have a definition. The dictionary says it is; Remarkable in magnitude of degree and effectiveness. So, all great drummers have excellent abilities to make their particular musical style groove and communicate to the intended audience. Moon did it one way, Porcaro another.

Ain't America great!

[beats]

5/8,i cant keep up with the thought provoking posts from u,still writing a response to the drum heroes post.U are very much in tune with how i feel about the drumset.I appreciate that u have a historic view about this great instrument.

In my experience thus far heres what i percieve to be the keys to greatness:
-a very honest love of drumming and music
-education(continuing education,in ALL phases of yer drumming life)
-concept(above all,develops style)
-technical facility(to express clearly your concept)
-real creativity
-open ears(with other musicians,with listening to other musics)
-versatility
-a working knowledge of dealing with musician personality types in band settings(basically being a human filter)
-for some,natural ability/gifted,for most others-a burning obsessive need to get better)
-and the most debatable point-great various taste in music,which is a tandem with listening skills,i believe a drummer is part in parcel with the types of music he listens to.Drummers usually have good taste(not often though with stylish dressing),i can usually tell if a drummer listens to good music,and i personally pride myself on being able to play almost anything(except latin music,but soon!!),strictly because of my record collection.


great topic.............................love and respect ......beats

[ashio nz]

'Great' for me anyhow is a misused term when describing someone's abilities or skills. Saying 'that's a great haircut' is different than saying 'he's a great drummer.'

I believe greatness in anything has to be measured over a period of time. This would include such things as versatility, adaptability, attitudes, professionalism, perserverance, knowledge of styles/musical genres, experience, and even the ability to pass on knowledge to others. Is that player a great guy also? THAT matters surely in this business because no-one wants to work with a ego maniac.

Actually, I'm a huge Copeland fan and I kinda agree with what you say. His major contribution is through scoring films rather than drumming, except for the Animal Logic/Oysterhead projects. But I would still call him a great drummer because he's such a unique sounding player. When he plays, you KNOW that's him at the kit. Same for Peart. They have achieved success in similar ways with major rock bands over a considerable period of time and are still influential today.

I think the fans that these 2 have is testament to their unique voices and 'greatness.'

Certainly being gifted has to be a part of how much your grow, how far you can go, etc. Being gifted isn't necessarily the same as being great because it's up to the individual every time. Raw talent needs to be polished like a diamond through practice and knowledge.

I also think that in some cases it's purely the mental toughness or character of a person will dictate whether their career will be good or great. Like sport, music is a tough, competitive industry and so it's an individual's choice, if they have real talent, as to how far that goes.

[palmerlouie]

great post five eight..........its often a question i ask myself. whats the difference between greg bissonette and vinnie colaiuta for example. well the simple answer would be that vinnie is just better......but why? what is it? why is weckl better than novak. perhaps better is too much of an opinionated word.......but why is weckl more widely known than novak etc........why isnt it novak and bissonette that are getting all the major gigs and in the drumming halls of fame. even though dennis chambers repeats himself he still has a certain something, individual to himself, that makes carlos santana hire him and make me buy and drewl over his records. etc etc.

perhaps bissonette was a bad example seeing as he is a very good player but novak i think is a good example....not that he is bad but because of things like the fact that he drove himself to his own drum clinic!

what makes the lang's and virgil's?

is it versatility? cause although buddy was amazing.....him trying to lay down a rock or funk rhythm was like watching a cat being sick......it was horrible and thats fine cause swing is his thing........but people like weckl, chambers, and vinnie can and do often play ANYTHING and be comfortable and convincing doing it!

[buga]

I think once you reach THE PEDESTAL of drumming you really gotta become comtepmt(*sp*)with your playing or just wait till someone works on something that will catch your attention enuff to get out of your ass and start playing your ass off, atleast that's how I feel with guys like Chambers. The guy already established a reputation so he can basically fall back on it, he built a name for himself so everyone in the community knows him, a guy like Novak I haven't heard much off(kinda retarded right? I know he does alot of session work including Alanis, and he's the new drummer on Corea's trio but aside from that I really haven't HEARD HIM). And well Weckl's resume just plain speaks for itself as does Vinnie's

I think the GREAT drummers are those who still strive to become better, to search for something, explore other roots like indian structures/rhythms, latin stuff and what not, not just people who haven't done anything remotely great in the last 20 years(Hi Mr.Chambers!)

from the 90's guys im not really impressed with most of the drummers overmentioned here aside from Akira, JoJo Mayer and Horacio Hernandez but then again im baised heheh

[five eight]

Fantastic replies. May I fan the flames of the discussion? A plumber or a carpenter go through an apprenticeship before becoming journeymen. By ten years the plumber and the carpenter both are masters, NOT SO THE HUMBLE MUSICIAN. I think Vinnie’s better than Bissonette too because for all of Gregg’s drum savvy his thing is copping hip licks whereas Vinnie’s thing is inventing hip licks. Gregg is excellent but Vinnie is great. Why? Style, originality, innovation? Is it a---gasp---snob thing amongst us drummers?

[BennyAndTheSkins]

"....I think the GREAT drummers are those who still strive to become better, to search for something, explore other roots like indian structures/rhythms, latin stuff and what not, not just people who haven't done anything remotely great in the last 20 years...."

I think Steve Smith is a great example of someone who has really strived to grow as a musician, and to get in touch with the roots of his craft. He could have rested on his laurels (Jean Luc-Ponty/Steps Ahead/Ahmad Jamal), but instead, at arguably the height of his career, in the mid 90's, he chose to dig down deep, and refine his playing even more. I think Steve's raw chops match most anybody's, but he choses to play a certain way, because that's what appeals to him most. Like the article in MD said recently, at the Drummer's Collective 25th Anniversary concert, after following Weckl, et al, he could have tried to play some balls-to-the-wall chops extravaganza, but chose to come out and exhibit some old school hi-hat work. Sorta like Obi-Wan Kenobi "........Your father's light saber...An elegant weapon, from a more civilized age...."